If these folks are for real, and if they can be influential among American Muslims… then the future for *everybody* could be a lot brighter than it often seems.
American Islamic Forum for Democracy
I heard part of an interview with one of their leaders on the Dennis Miller show yesterday, and the guy seemed on the ball and reasonable. “Separation of Mosque and State” was their motto.
My problem with Islam is not the theology. As Heinlein noted, “One mans theology is another mans bellylaugh,” and that’s certainly true WRT Islam… but it’s no more true for Islam than it is for Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Scientology, or any of the myriad of other religions people have invented over the millenia. No, my problem with Islam is that its a *political* religion, and a universalist one.
Judaism is a political religion… sets up systems of laws and leadership and such. But Judasim is *not* a universalist religion. Not only do they not make much effort to convert non-Jews, they make it something of a challenge to convert (“You want me to cut off my *what?*”). So the political aspects of Judaism are intended solely for the Jews, not the gentiles living around ’em.
Christianity is a universalist religion… there are Christian missionaries of every stripe every damned where trying to convert everydamnedone. Christians, many of ’em anyway, want *everyone* to be Christian. But Christianity is, on the whole, not a terribly political religion. “Render unto Caesar” is the beginnings of a separation of church and state. Obviously, history has shown that the various Christian sects dearly love to be in charge of everything, but there is no agreed upon “system.” We’ve seen Christian commies and Christian anti-commies; Christian republicans and Christian monarchists. America is one of the most Christian nations on Earth by any measure, and yet we have a system of government in place that is wholly agnostic, and in fact adopted from good ol’ Germanic heathens.
But Islam is not only universalist in that Islam states that everybody should be Muslim, it’s also a deeply political religion, as expressed via Sharia. *If* the political aspects could be chainsawed off of the religion, I suspect the vast bulk of the problem between Muslims and everybody else would go away. While I’ve little hope for that happening elsewhere, it has a chance here in the US. Muslims form only a small percentage of the population, and apart from places that got unfortunate mass dumps of, say, Somalian refugees, American Muslims have in general done what most immigrant groups have done: assimilate. An Americanised Islam has a chance of forming… perhaps a new sect, not Sunni, not Shia, but Yankee (“Yan Qi?” Dunno, looks Chinese…). An Islam that is as Americanised as the Minnesota Lutherans would be a positive boon not only to America, but to Islam as a whole.
3 Responses to “Actual hope for the future”
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I cannot imagine that Westernized Islam would be greeted with favor in Mecca. Such an offshoot would find itself isolated quickly from the Muslim community. All of which would be very, very good — if they’re serious and can maintain the momentum as they convert.
Muslim students I have encountered during my life in the two local universities have not assimilated except to get laid and survive in class. They stand apart, always with what they will call openly their “own kind.” So far, they’ve been the ones most openly anti-American — even the ones who have been here for a couple of generations.
Scott,
Islam started by the sword. It started by and through conquest. Islam was never the religion of the dispossessed. Its initial adherents and creators – the Prophet himself – came into political power whilst wielding and creating Islam.
Thus there was never any separation between the church and state. There was never a time when Islam was being created that its creators and adherents were not those in power over their society. Thus there was never the need to develop anything similar to the “render unto Caesar…” bit that Christianity had to adopt in order to survive.
Thus, as a central tennent of Islam, religious affairs and political affairs are one in the same. There can be no secular in the Islamic world. And any true follower of Islam has to live their lives that way or else they are violating their faith.
Another central tennent of Islam is that it can not ever be subordinated to other religions. That is, it must always and constantly work to become dominant over them. In accordance with this, it is a Muslim’s holy duty to use any means necessary in the process of bringing Islam to that dominance. This includes lying to non-believers about their intent to that end.
Thus the very real grounds for suspicion of any Muslim who professes a desire for peaceful coexistence. If they are true to their religion then they must be working constantly to see its dominance over all other faiths and the subjugation of all non-believers. If they are not doing this then they are in violation of God’s direct commands to them as his followers.
And that’s another difference between the faiths. The Koran is a compendium of God’s direct words spoken to his followers. The Christian Bible is a compendium of the interpretations of God’s words by his followers. Thus, there has always been room for further interpretation of those words as they were spoken by humans and thus imperfect. In the Koran, there can be no interpretation since those are the direct “word of God.” Thus you can not, in good faith, spin the Koran to suit modern political ends as many a Christian has spun what is stated in the Bible.
The closest you can get to any non-militant, non-expansionist, non-aggressive Muslims are the Sufis. And even despite the seething, frothing hatred that Shia and Sunni Muslims have for each other, they will turn immediately from that conflict between them in order to snuff out any Sufis they find. They hold them in that degree of contempt as they are an abomination of God’s word.
So, no, we’re not ever likely to see much change in the Islamic world and will always be rightfully suspicious of any Muslim who professes that they have actually changed.
Madoc
That is Dr. Zuhdi Jasser (sp?), who is actually on the side of truth and justice, as opposed to shilling for those who wish to conquer through dawa and demographics. And yes, he’s actually proven this through his actions. Check out “The Third Jihad” on YouTube.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osZ5TvhiTZQ