Oct 092017
 

This piece seems to be reasonably well reasoned, and if you are a left-winger or an anti-gunner, or if you know one, I’d suggest giving it a read.

6 Reasons Your Right-Wing Friend Isn’t Coming To Your Side On Gun Control

As the title suggests, six reasons are given. But I think the first one is perhaps one of the most important:

The most destructive, divisive response when dealing with Second Amendment advocates is the notion that we aren’t on your side of the issue because we “don’t care” about the tragedy and loss of life. Two years ago at Christmas I had a family member, exasperated that I wasn’t agreeing about gun control, snarl, “It appears that if your [step] daughter was killed because of gun violence you wouldn’t even care!”

Me, I’m a jerk. I’ve long since ceased to really care about convincing people who disagree with me to agree with me, because to a large degree politics has become so stultifyingly polarized that no matter what evidence is produced that there isn’t some phantom wage gap, or that nuclear power is the way to go, or that the United States isn’t the greatest evil in world history, or that the world is more than 6,000 years old or that vaccines aren’t going to give you autism or that a firearm I own isn’t going to jump up and shoot you or that maybe you should be allowed to keep what you earn and control your own stuff and destiny, there will be people who just will not accept it. A few decades of these fights have largely drained the hope from me that many people are even open to understanding anything that even comes close to libertarianism or conservativism or a rational scientific outlook. So I just throw the occasional bomb onto my blog and call it a day.

But if you actually hold out the hope of convincing The Other Side of your viewpoint, coming at them right out of the gate with “you don’t care about victims” is *exactly* the wrong approach. And for two reasons:

1: If the other guy doesn’t believe that you believe what you’re saying, he knows you to be a dishonest and disreputable liar.

2: If the other guy *does* believe what you say when you declare that he doesn’t care about actual victims, he’s going to assume that *you* are the actual sociopath in the situation.

And somethgin that has coem up in the comments section of this blog many times is also discussed:

5. We Seriously Don’t Care About Gun Laws in Other Countries

We really, really don’t.

We don’t.

Most Americans give precisely zero shits about “but everyone else in the world does X.” Whether “X” is:

  • Fanatical devotion to soccer
  • Disdain for American beer/chocolate/fast food/movies/music/culture
  • Acceptance of anti-blasphemy laws and other forms of legal strictures on the expression of unpopular opinions
  • What y’all think the US should do about gun laws.

We really, really don’t. Sure, some do, but we tend to sequester them in Hollywood where we can point at them and laugh.

 Posted by at 12:18 am
  • sferrin

    “Most Americans give precisely zero shits about “but everyone else in the world does X.” Whether “X” is:

    Fanatical devotion to soccer

    Disdain for American beer/chocolate/fast food/movies/music/culture

    Acceptance of anti-blasphemy laws and other forms of legal strictures on the expression of unpopular opinions

    What y’all think the US should do about gun laws.

    We really, really don’t. Sure, some do, but we tend to sequester them in Hollywood where we can point at them and laugh.”

    This.

  • allen

    I will never understand the obsession some people have with europe. damn near all of us left there for pretty legitimate reasons, and even after 2 world wars, and a bunch of other all-europe dust-ups, I do not see any of those problems having been actually solved. if anything they just bury their problems deep, and the next time there is a border dispute they unearth their grievances from the napoleonic era and start right back where their great-grandfathers left off.

    we have some similar problems..try being from NH and being stationed in the south..you’d think the war was last week..but not nearly as bad as some european issues.

    • Nh_flier

      Absolutely Brother Allen. I’ve had a few of the less modern ones look up my last name in Dyer’s Compendium – to find out I had ancestors in the 10th New Hampshire and 20th Maine.
      I just told them I was scouting for Round Two.

    • Unsubscriber

      Border disputes don’t happen very often at all in Europe – well Western Europe. Those were settled by WWI. In Eastern Europe and South-Eastern Europe, they occur occasionally. Time you caught up with modern views, rather than your outdated grand-daddy’s views.

      • Brianna

        “Those were settled by WWI”

        Hitler would disagree. So would the Catalans. As for having gun laws to be nice and peaceful like Europe… well, forgive me if I don’t think that a continent that’s gone a whole 20 years without a genocide within their borders is a good example.

        • Hoplophobe

          Europe may be a continent, and yes it has had it’s problems. Today, they settle disputes with Referendums, not guns in the Western half. Perhaps you missed out Catalan voting to succeed? What a shame that Madrid sent in the Police to try and stop it…

      • allen

        I think Poland, Finland, Catalan, Ukraine, and others would strongly disagree with everything being settled during WW1.

        but hey..let’s compare…
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#21st_century

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_North_America#21st_century

        we’ve got 3..only because they somehow include a sports riot in vancouver.

        • Hoplophobe

          I wasn’t aware any of those countries were in Western Europe. Perhaps you should learn some geography? Those countries are all in Eastern Europe. Considering that we had over 40 years after WWII without a problem…

          • allen

            I never narrowed myself to a particular section of europe. that was you.

            40 years after WW2 without a problem…huh…let’s just include the time you’re talking about…1946-1986. that’s 40 years, right?

            1944–1956 Guerrilla war in the Baltic states
            1945–1949 Greek Civil War
            1947–1962 Romanian anti-communist resistance movement
            1953 Uprising in East Germany
            1956 Uprising in Poznań
            1956 Hungarian Revolution
            1956–1962 Operation Harvest
            1958 Opération Corse
            1958 First Cod War
            1959–2011 Basque conflict
            1967 Greek coup d’état
            1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
            1968–1998 The Troubles
            1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
            1972 Bugojno group
            1972–1973 Second Cod War
            1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
            1974 Carnation Revolution
            1975–1976 Third Cod War
            1981 Spanish coup d’état

            that’s a whole lot of “without a problem” you got there.

          • Scottlowther

            And post Soviet collapse you’ve got “non problems” like Yugoslavia Georgia and Ukraine, with borders wandering around due to spirited military hijinks.

          • allen

            “unsubscriber” went for 40 years..so I narrowed to that.

            and I see the post has been deleted. no one likes having their bubble burst, I guess.

          • Scottlowther

            Unsubscriber was banned for being a troll (disagreeing and arguing is fine, but the incessant insults grew tiresome). He got around the ban with a new IP address, and that new account was banned and the messages deleted.

            I’m pretty sure its the same guy who keeps popping up now and again. Always an Australian IP, the same tone and dismal message. Some people are really kinda odd.

          • allen

            I feel sorry for australia. if he is an example of what they are there now…

            let’s just hope we never have to ask australia’s help. for anything.

  • Unsubscriber

    You may believe that but many Americans do seem to care what the rest of the world thinks. Why else do they keep mention Australian gun control laws? Why else do they mention the Paris Global Warming Accord? Your problem appears to be that you don’t care so you assume others don’t care. I suspect you live an isolated life where your values are reinforced and you don’t like them being challenged. Which begs the question, why allow other people to post questions/answers/opinions on your blog?

    • Tybarious

      Same could be said of you. He never said all Americans don’t. “We really, really don’t. Sure, some do”.

      Plus, the Paris Global Warming Accords are a joke just like the UN

      • Unsubscriber

        You may believe that but the rest of the world disagrees. In this case, the rest of the world matters. You don’t.

        • sferrin

          We. Don’t. Care. Please, feel free to destroy your economies.

          • Hoplophobe

            While you destroy our environment. Such silliness. You’d think that forty years after the problem of Anthropocentric Global Warming had been identified, even ignorant people could understand it by now. I suppose you think like your el Presidente that it’s all a Chinese conspiracy?

    • Brianna

      Allow me to clarify Scott’s point: most people who favor strong gun rights do not care what the rest of the world does or does not do. It’s the leftists who are terrified what other people think.

      • Unsubscriber

        No, that is what you believe. Most people don’t care what you think, it’s what you do what worries them. They want people to actually obey the laws and to stop misusing their guns. Guarantee that you could own as many guns as you desire, I expect.

        • sferrin

          I take it you didn’t know that murder is illegal? So what, you want to make more laws criminals don’t follow?

          • Hoplophobe

            Murder is illegal. However, that only punishes those caught, it does not prevent it from occurring. Same goes for the death penalty. How successful has that been at stopping crime again?

        • Brianna

          I find it worrying that you automatically accuse random strangers of serious crimes. It makes me wonder if you in fact base your legal decisions on what law-abiding people are likely to do… or criminals. I would like to point out that if it’s the latter, then assuming people who commit crimes by definition are suddenly going to stop because of some new law is probably a flawed assumption.

          • Hoplophobe

            I accuse those that support no gun control as being seriously unhinged or actually Anarchists. When they keep defending a regime which produces events like Las Vegas, Sandy Hook, etc. it is obvious they indeed unhinged. They appear to care nothing for other peoples’ lives.

    • sferrin

      “You may believe that but many Americans do seem to care what the rest of the world thinks. Why else do they keep mention Australian gun control laws?”

      Because they want to get rid of all the guns and that’s the only example they have that even somewhat fits their narrative. That’s obvious to anybody paying attention. And no, most Americans couldn’t give two shits about what the rest of the world thinks.

      • Unsubscriber

        No, that is what you believe they believe. Some do, most don’t. They just want the gun massacres to stop, to see Americans walk the streets without being worried about some lunatic with a gun shooting them for no reason.

        • Scottlowther

          > walk the streets without being worried about some lunatic with a gun shooting them for no reason.

          Statistics do not support that worry for the vast majority of Americans. If you really want Americans to stop worrying about it, you need to tackle the news media that lives by “if it bleeds it leads.” Getting people riled up about the latest moral panic – the fear of mass shootings, or Satanic cults stealing children,or poison in consumer products, or freakouts about nuclear reactors, or what-the-hell-ever – is a popular news product.

          • Hoplophobe

            It might be a mistaken impression created by the media but who buys the media’s reporting and thence makes them believe what they are printing is truthful? You and all the other Americans…

        • sferrin

          Sounds like a few people need to be educated. Many times more people die in auto accidents every year than die in “mass shootings”. Do you wet your pants every time you walk by an automobile? Your perception does not match reality.

          • Hoplophobe

            I believe, at the very least, drivers should be licensed to drive on public roads and that their cars should meet acceptable standards as far as brakes, lights, etc. You appear to believe in anarchy.

        • Ian Bruene

          Even if that were true this problem would remain: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4912

          “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 238927543864298346193873468 times shame on me.”

          • Hoplophobe

            > Even if that were true…

            Sure looks true from outside, particularly if you’re a non-white…

          • Scottlowther

            Oh, look. It’s the Aussie troll again. Banned again.

            Find yourself a new hobby. Type your troll-posts all you want; it takes only a few keystrokes for them to vanish. You’re wasting your own time far more than mine.

      • Paul451

        Why else do they keep mention Australian gun control laws?

        Because they want to get rid of all the guns

        Except that we have more guns now than before the gun reforms. It was never about “getting rid of all the guns”.

        (And this is what I meant, if you stop making up phony stories, maybe people will stop bringing up the rest of the world.)

        • FelixA9

          Why do you care? Seriously.

    • Scottlowther

      > why allow other people to post questions/answers/opinions on your blog?

      Your confusion on that simple question is the sort of thing that *should* cause you to question your basic assumptions.

      • Unsubscriber

        I do, everytime I go on the Internet. It is full of weirdos, strange beliefs and conspiracies, which when examine are seen to be bullshit they actually are.

  • Paul451

    And somethgin that has coem up in the comments section of this blog many times is also discussed:
    5. We Seriously Don’t Care About Gun Laws in Other Countries
    We really, really don’t.
    We don’t.

    We’ll stop bringing up everywhere else in the world when you guys stop saying “[Gun law reform] won’t make any difference, mass shooters will just find another way”.

    Because every time you say that, someone from the rest of the world is going to say, “Actually…”

    You don’t want to change, so be it. But stop making up bullshit excuses to justify it.

    • Scottlowther

      Actually, gun law reform *has* made a difference. Over the past thirty years or so, concealed carry has gone from just a few states to virtually all of them; the Supeme Court has finally recognized and incorporated the right of all citizen to bear arms in their homes and out; the number of AR-15s in private hands has ballooned. The “assault weapons ban” has been done away with, as well as bans on standard capacity magazines. So, there has been substantial forward progress on gun law reform.

      And over the same time period, the murder rate has dropped substantially.

      So, actually… yes, gun law reform helps lower the murder rate. You just have to know *what* *kind* *of* *reform.*

      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rtc.gif

      http://i.imgur.com/Ayj53JB.jpg

      • sferrin

        Oh there you go. You didn’t follow the narrative and probably triggered a few snowflakes into rage mode.

      • CaptainNed

        I’ve lived in the only 1986 “green state” (we’ve been green since before statehood) for my entire life and have witnessed its turn from reliably Republican to rabid Democratic. Even so, our local politicians know instinctively that trying to change the utter lack of gun laws here would be their downfall.

        The rules, such as they exist:

        Don’t carry in a gov’t building (including schools)
        Don’t carry a loaded rifle in a car (road-hunting problems)
        Don’t carry with the intent to breach the peace

        That’s it. Seriously.

    • sferrin

      Guess what. If we wanted to live like “the rest of the world” we’d live there. Maybe there’s a lesson in there for you.

      • Paul451

        If we wanted to live like “the rest of the world” we’d live there.

        So you didn’t read anything I actually said, just saw a key-word and replied?

        People bring up “the rest of the world” to debunk the myths that you use to avoid changes that are supported by the majority of Americans, including the majority of American gun owners.

        • sferrin

          Except they aren’t supported by “the majority of Americans”. No matter how many times you claim that it doesn’t make it true.

          • Paul451

            80-90% of Americans support background checks on all gun sales. Even if you suggest a Federally-centralised system. Around 70% support uniform mandatory waiting periods.

            70-80% support tighter restrictions on who can own firearms, whether you’re asking about people with mental health issues, people on the no-fly-list, people on restraining orders, or people convicted of violent offences.

            Even on a generic question like “Do you support stricter gun control laws”, about 2/3rds agree. Hell nearly half of gun owners agree.

            [When split choices are offered, “Stricter controls”, “Less strict controls”, or “Same as now”, nearly half of gun owners choose “Stricter”, a third choose “Same as now”, and around a tenth choose “Less strict” (the rest being “unsure/refused/etc”.)]

            Similar results to the idea of creating a Federal database of all sales. (Essentially mandatory Federal registration of all firearms.) High public support, and nearly half of gun owners supporting it. That surprised me.

            Generally consistent results from different polls, and over different years, but the results for “Banning ‘assault’ weapons” varies wildly, even when the question explicitly says “Semi-automatic”, from 2/3rds support to 2/3rds opposition. Which usually means either people haven’t thought about the question strongly, or there’s some other issue at play.

            OTOH, when asked if they support things like outright handgun bans, you get a clear majority saying no. Indeed, the results are usually pretty pro-gun ownership, with over half saying that having a gun in the home makes it safer and just a third saying unsafer. Likewise, with the caveat of “after background checks and passing a training course”, a small majority thinks that concealed-carry makes society safer. So it’s not about “gun grabbers.”

          • FelixA9

            “80-90% of Americans support background checks on all gun sales.”

            These are the same 80-90% who think there’s such a thing as a “gun show loop hole”.

            “imilar results to the idea of creating a Federal database of all sales. (Essentially mandatory Federal registration of all firearms.) High public support, and nearly half of gun owners supporting it. That surprised me.”

            I question the accuracy of that. Anybody with more than two brain cells firing knows that registration is sure to be followed by confiscation.

          • Scottlowther

            > Anybody with more than two brain cells firing knows that registration is sure to be followed by confiscation.

            See, that sort of thinking is just outright conspiracy-mongering nuttiness. Just ask the DACA kids: registration has no down sides whatsoever.

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